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• • • • • • • • Goto page 1, ->:: Author Message cascade New Member Joined: 07 Nov 2010 Posts: 2 Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:29 pm Post subject: How to choose Bach Strad based on serial number? After a 30 year hiatus, I'm looking to play trumpet again and am looking for a good instrument to be used in a community band setting and weekend wedding/coffee house jazz type gigs. Due to funds, I can only afford a single horn that will need to do it all. I came across an older gentleman that is a friend of the family that has offered to sell me one of the many Strads he has acquired over the years. The Strads he's willing to sell are as follows: 1.

Model 37, silver plate, 112xxx 2. Model 37, silver plate, 196xxx 3. Model 37, silver plate, 449xxx 4. Model 37, lacquer, 636xxx 5.

Model 37, silver plate, 644xxx I'm not sure why he had purchased so many of the same model. Perhaps this a warning flag? Anyways, I spent a few hours play testing all these instruments but just do not have the skill level to determine which horn is best. They all play similar with nice fast valves, tone is similar, all intonate well, and all are in excellent condition with only minor wear. Can anyone offer as to which Strad may be the best out of the bunch based on serial number?

Should the serial number impact the price on these four? He has them priced so that the later serial numbers are a couple of hundred dollars higher. Or am I totally off base and should I be looking at Yamaha 6335's, B & S Challengers or something else like a lightweight 8310Z? Thank you kindly for any advice or comments! VetPsychWars Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Nov 2006 Posts: 6976 Location: Greenfield WI Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:12 pm Post subject: Just play the damn things, you goof.

Seriously, what? Stick your piece in it and if it plays, buy it. If you can't tell, like I can't, don't waste your money. Tom _________________ Buescher Lightweight 400 Other Buescher horns 1939--1955 GR65M, GR65 Cor #1 tptptp Heavyweight Member Joined: 25 Oct 2001 Posts: 1006 Location: Georgia Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:32 pm Post subject: If the older ones are in great, unrepaired condition with no silver wear and tight valve compression, and are cheaper, I'd pick one of those. I'm like you, in that I might have trouble picking the 'best' player. If you have a more practiced friend, let him try them out.

He may feel a blow difference which you might only notice later, when you are on your game. Oh, and I'd pick a good Strad over all those others. _________________ Craig jengstrom Veteran Member Joined: 15 Sep 2008 Posts: 307 Location: Rochester, NY Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:06 pm Post subject: Cascade, For better or worse, the Bach 37 has been the standard to which all others are compared for many years. Although a Yammie Zeno is a good horn and quite popular, and although the Bach 37 isn't my cup of tea (I play a 43 lightweight most of the time), a good Bach 37 is a great horn that will last you a lifetime. If these horns truly play identically (within your ability to tell the difference), choose the one that is cheaper and/or likely to retain more of its value than the others. That may eliminate the ones with the higher serial number because some people think they are of lower quality than the earlier ones.

I would (1) bet that there are subtle differences in the horns and (2) would strive to find those differences and choose the one that most suits you, no matter what the serial number is. Besides the obvious regarding dents and other damage, things to look for include: 1. Intonation - look closely at the low D and Db, as well as 4th space D, Eb, and E. I saw a post one time where someone said to play scales in the key of B because that key was notorious for being out of tune.

Don't base your decision on that scale alone, but it could help you decide. You might also find that certain valve combinations are always a bit out, no matter which notes. How do the 1st and 3rd valve slides work? When you pull them out a half inch and let go, do they pop back to position, or close to it?

Can you see evidence of corrosion anywhere inside the tubing? This is hard to see, but you might be able to get some clues looking into the leadpipe, especially at the mouthpiece end. Does the mouthpiece fit securely in the receiver or does it feel like it's 'hitting bottom'? (This happened to me once.) 4.

How does the blow differ between the horns as you approach high C? My one complaint about Bach 37's has always been that they feel tight to me in the high register. But, one man's irritation can be another man's nirvana. Play up there and choose the one you like better. I gaurantee they're different. And if you can play above high C, be aware of the intonation.

Horns can get real squirrelly up there. You won't be able to check much about the valve alignment without some neat tools, but you can look in the second valve slide ports and see how that valve lines up with the ports when the valve is down. With good light, you might be able to see into the 1st valve slide too. This list is by no means comprehensive, but might help you decide. You won't go wrong with a good 37. -John Crazy Finn Heavyweight Member Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 6803 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:15 pm Post subject: If only there was a mystical way to determine if on that day and that hour those workers did a good job of assembly and detail work. And if when it was assembled the horn blew well and freely and in tune and resonated well.

Perhaps if you take the serial number, divide by the radius of the earth's orbit, subtract the number of days left in that particular lunar cycle, and up the birthdays of the shop foreman during the construction of each horn, divide that number by the speed of the earth's rotation, multiply by the speed of the moon around the earth, and then correlate that to the closest number in the Fibonacci sequence. VetPsychWars wrote: Just play the damn things, you goof. Seriously, what? Stick your piece in it and if it plays, buy it. If you can't tell, like I can't, don't waste your money. Tom Gee, that's not easier or better in any way. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet Besson 709 Bb Trumpet Bach 184L Bb Cornet Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn RogersBrass Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2009 Posts: 514 Location: Chicago, IL Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:25 pm Post subject: The best position for you to take is to assume they are all the same.

What Bachs are the best?this is one of the most opinionated topics.and most certainly regarding serial numbers. The House Of The Rising Sun Midi File. It's like picking out a puppy.take home the one that crawls out of the litter box and barks at you. _________________ custom leadpipes spitvalve Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Mar 2002 Posts: 1523 Location: Little Elm, TX Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:20 pm Post subject: Obviously your friend really likes Bachs. _________________ Bryan Fields ---------------- shofarguy Heavyweight Member Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 6000 Location: AZ Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:46 pm Post subject: Some practical things to look for: Closely inspect the silver plating for little black spots, blisters, flaking or even soft spots in the tubing. Pay attention to the mouthpipe that goes from the mouthpiece receiver to the tuning slide, and to the area around the spit valve. These are common areas for what is called red rot.

Pull the tuning slide and try to see down the mouthpipe. Get some light to shine up through the pipe by reflecting up from the bell. Look for dark, shadowy blotches. Ask if the horns have been scrubbed out recently. If any of these things are evident, these parts may need to be replaced at some point. Nest, take hold of the valve stems and see if you can feel any side-to-side play in the pistons.

Work them fore and aft, as well as side to side. If you sense definite movement, the valve is worn and will likely need rebuilding. If you can see any stress in the bell or tubing where dents or creases have been removed, it may indicate that the horn no longer plays as well as it should. Even well done repairs which are cosmetically invisible may not have restored the original playability of that trumpet. In regards to serial numbers, there have always been good and not so good horns.

If you cannot tell which plays best yet, these visual indicators may help eliminate potential disappointments when you arrive at the skill level that will tell you that you got a good horn. Brian _________________ Brian A. Douglas Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds. EBjazz Heavyweight Member Joined: 14 Nov 2001 Posts: 2231 Location: SF Bay Area Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:49 pm Post subject: I would go with the lower numbers if the horns are in good shape. I know some don't buy into the whole 'true Bach' thing, but the horns that come after 646013 that I have played have all been good.

The horns that came just prior to 646013 are hit and miss IMO. So the top 3 on your list are from a good era. Eb _________________ Eric Bolvin Brad361 Heavyweight Member Joined: 16 Dec 2007 Posts: 5006 Location: Houston, TX. Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:57 pm Post subject: You are likely to get almost as many opinions on this as there are Strads.

As others said, play them, pick the one that feels / sounds best to you. Or get someone who is a bit more skilled, and both of you play them, then decide. And remember that 90% of what's coming out of the bell has more to do with you than the horn. Brad361 Capt.Kirk Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5792 Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 4:43 pm Post subject: I like Brian's advice best. I would add that compression test and standard leak test is a must. After that if it Plays good get it. I would no more pick a horn by it's serial number then I would pick a woman just with number's!

I would guess that he bought them because the market is flooded with H.S. Band Students horns that are not used any more. Kids and their Directors worship at the altar of Bach Strad 180S37 so with a glut of them on the market they often do not hold their value and can be had at a good price. Since demand is like wise high for that model you know it will be easy to flip the ones you do not want to keep. Most will play average and if you sample enough of them you always find one that is extraordinary in how it plays. I am going to guess he is selling the average ones and keeping the one that really sings for himself! Obviously no one needs 5 180S37's all at the same time!

On that same note their are some really good clones out their and if you can afford one I think new is always better then used. Sonare's are getting great reviews from everyone that play test's one. They are cheaper then a new Bach and have some added value in their design. They are basicly a Bach 37 clone. Getzen has the Proteus which is a superb playing trumpet. I would say it is a tad more diffused and a little darker sounding then a Bach 37 but it is based off a Bach 37 bell.

It has Getzens Forever warranty on the valves which are nickel not monel. Very solid core!! Usually well priced as well because Getzen sells it or markets it as a Intermediate horn but it is for all real world purposes a pro-horn! _________________ The only easy day was yesterday! Scorpion Heavyweight Member Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 1959 Location: hell Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:39 pm Post subject: excuse me, but i think you are all forgetting the most important test here.

Listen carefully. Go to your buddy's house. Get black-out drunk off of pineapple schnapps and go on a rampage. Whichever one is not destroyed when you come out of your stupor is the chosen one. _________________ -GET OVER HERE!

Environment 8th Edition Pdf. -1964 Olds Super Balanced Depleted Uranium single flue Harpoon (w/custom coprion hand guard i got from a 1925 Conn Erradicator.) Akright converted handle w/calfskin grip (143xx) Dale Proctor Heavyweight Member Joined: 26 May 2005 Posts: 8623 Location: Heart of Dixie Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:42 pm Post subject: All other things being equal, buy the oldest one. The perceived worth will always be higher than the newer ones. Or, buy the one that all the digits add up to 7. _________________ Olde Towne Brass Brass Band of Huntsville 'Brass bands are all very well in their place - outdoors and several miles away.' - Sir Thomas Beecham Capt.Kirk Heavyweight Member Joined: 24 Feb 2009 Posts: 5792 Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 8:15 pm Post subject: What is asking for them?

Get the one in the best shape with regard to valve wear and such. Put a 7 or 43 pipe on it and get the valves aligned and then give her a sexy,exotic name and treat her with tlc and let her be your muse! _________________ The only easy day was yesterday!

Rockford Heavyweight Member Joined: 03 Aug 2007 Posts: 2367 Location: Northern VA Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:29 am Post subject: Most of the time used Bach trumpets simply need to be cleaned out or have fresh valve pads (proper dimension!) installed to play the way they should. I buy horns all the time that people have grown to dislike and usually there's a ton of crap in them, especially that spot between the third valve casing and the tuning slide. Seems like everyone forgets to clean there.

_________________ Bill Siegfried NY/Mt. Vernon Bach Bb, C and D trumpets and cornets. Bach Artisan C, Bach C cornet, Schilke G, Yamaha Eb and piccolo A/Bb, flugelhorn, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Genz-Benz amps.

Embraer 170/175/190 plp Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 6919 Location: South Alabama Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:53 am Post subject: At this point, if you are just coming back to playing, it is very difficult to decide, based on limited skills. As many here have suggested, check the physical condition and make your decision based on that. While there are dogs, for the most part Strads are good trumpets and the 37 is the Chevy of the trumpet world, good in all situations. Welcome back, and get a private teacher to help you get back in the groove. _________________ Since all other motives—fame, money, power, even honor—are thrown out the window the moment I pick up that instrument. I play because I love doing it, even when the results are disappointing. In short, I do it to do it.” Wayne Booth Jerry Heavyweight Member Joined: 20 Jan 2002 Posts: 1608 Location: San Diego Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:25 am Post subject: You can't tell by serial number.

Nonsense Eliminator Heavyweight Member Joined: 03 Feb 2003 Posts: 5108 Location: Toronto Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:41 am Post subject: I would say that the variance among horns made at a particular time (especially after decades of use) is not less than the variance in quality over time. That is, even if it were possible to say that instruments with 112xxx SNs are, as a group, better than instruments with 644xxx SNs, it does not necessarily follow that a particular instrument from the earlier group is better than a particular instrument from the later group.

(Example: Asians are, on average, shorter than caucasians; it does not follow that I am taller than Yao Ming.) Presumably, if your friend has bought many instruments over the years he has tried to eliminate the dogs himself, and will have tended to choose instruments that play a particular way, so there's probably not as much variation within his collection as there might be in a random sample. I think the suggestions about evaluating mechanical soundness and checking for red rot are good.

_________________ Richard Sandals ~ jhatpro Heavyweight Member Joined: 17 Mar 2002 Posts: 8754 Location: Chicago area Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 8:20 am Post subject: My own experience would suggest stick with the Strad. I have two and prefer them to any of the several dozen other brands I've tried over the years. My 37, built in 1975, is excellent and so is my 72R, built in 2005. Not sure if they are representative of their eras or are the exception but they both play well and sound great. As for picking the best of a litter, I'd play them all in a blind test with someone who knows what a trumpet should sound like as judge. I'd value sound and playability over costmetics. An interesting and possibly valuable variation of the play test would be to reverse the process as well.

In other words, after you play for a friend or two and have them write down their choice, do the same for them and pick the best one you hear. Compare the choices and, if they match, you have a winner. If they don't -- well, maybe you can at least eliminate some from consideration. _________________ Jim Hatfield 'The weapon should be practiced every day.' Old French swordsman's manual rbn Veteran Member Joined: 17 Aug 2009 Posts: 124 Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:54 am Post subject: --- Last edited by rbn on Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:11 pm; edited 1 time in total Display posts from previous: ->All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, Page 1 of 2 Jump to: You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

BachLoyalist.com - Serial Number Index Trombones There are multiple sources for the Vincent Bach trombone on the internet today. We decided to combine into a single timeline reference to better understand the instrument serial numbers vs. The status of the company. We're always looking for more information/corrections to include, so please email us through our contact us link in the header. All information is copyright per the original owner/source.

Trombone Serial Numbers Serial Number Year Year Event / News - 1890 Born Vincent Schrotenbach in Vienna - 1916 Vincent Bach designed and handcrafted his first mouthpieces. - 1922 Incorporated as Vincent Bach Corporation, Inc. New York City Index #: 7517 August 18, 1922 - 1925 'Mercury' trademark filed Filed: August 14, 1925 Registered: May 16, 1926 - 1925 'Stradivarius' trademark filed Filed: August 14, 1925 Registered: May 16, 1926 - 1927 'Mercedes' trademark filed Filed: March 21, 1927 Registered: May 31, 1927 - 1928 1st Trombones Designed 1 1929 - First Trombone completed June 26, 1929 159 1930 - 193 1932 - Bach Model 16 200 1933 - 400 1935 - 1936 - First mention of Bass Trombone Designs Oct.

16, 1936 - Bach Diary 9 1939 - Bach Mercury Models 1600 1940 - 2118 1941 - Bach Mercedes Model 2200 1942 - 2500 1945 - 3056 1948 - Bach Model 12 3450 1950 - 4052 1952 - - 1953 Moved to Mt. Vernon, NY 50 South MacQuesten Parkway Mt. Vernon, NY () () 4500 1955 - 2722 1958 - Bach Minerva Model 5700 1960 - 5950 1961 - - 1961 Vincent Bach Corp. Purchased by Selmer Industries 'Vincent Bach' trademark filed Filed: May 2, 1962 Registered: Feb. 19, 1963 'Bach shield' trademark filed Filed: May 2, 1962 Registered: July 30, 1963 - 1963 Closed Mt.

Vernon, NY Factory 6900 1964 - 70XX 1964 - - 1965 Production started in Elkhart, IN 600 Industrial Parkway Elkhart, IN () () 8000 1965 - - - - 1976 Vincent Bach Dies - - - - - - 1 - - 1995 Selmer Industries buys Steinway Musical Properties - 1996 IPO as Steinway Musical Instruments - 1997 'Bach Circle' trademark filed Filed: May 1, 1997 Registered: Oct. 13, 1998 - 2000 Acquisition of United Musical Instruments - 2002 John Stoner named CEO; Conn Selmer - 2003 Merger of UMI and Selmer into Conn-Selmer 'Vincent Bach' trademark Renewed: March 5, 2003 - 2004 Closed Original Selmer Plant North Main Street, Elkhart, IN - 2004 John Ratzenberger's 'Made in America' Filmed - 2004 'Bach shield' trademark Renewed: Feb. 13, 2004 1 - 6 - Start of the 'True Bach' Advertising Campaign Serial Number Year Year Event / News.